1 00:00:01,490 --> 00:00:06,450 My name is Sally Koutsoliotas and I'm a 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,910 faculty member at Bucknell University. 3 00:00:06,450 --> 00:00:10,559 As someone at a liberal arts institution, 4 00:00:08,910 --> 00:00:12,269 the cover letter plays an important role 5 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:15,330 in the application process. 6 00:00:12,269 --> 00:00:17,580 Most postdocs are unfamiliar with 7 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:19,380 undergraduate institutions and so the 8 00:00:17,580 --> 00:00:21,180 role of the cover letter is for me to 9 00:00:19,380 --> 00:00:23,730 try and understand why they think that 10 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:25,369 they would be a good fit for my school. 11 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:27,060 As you'll hear, different 12 00:00:25,369 --> 00:00:38,520 institutions view the cover letter differently. 13 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:40,230 K: The cover letter, when I look at it, 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,670 I say: why is it, of all the 15 00:00:40,230 --> 00:00:43,530 places you're applying, you want to come 16 00:00:41,670 --> 00:00:46,110 to a place like Bucknell? 17 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:48,989 If it doesn't address that, I pretty much 18 00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:50,489 give it a really low score. In fact, 19 00:00:48,989 --> 00:00:51,899 sometimes I don't even, depending on what 20 00:00:50,489 --> 00:00:54,059 they say in the cover letter, 21 00:00:51,899 --> 00:00:56,210 I don't read past the cover letter. 22 00:00:54,059 --> 00:01:01,230 If it starts off "Dear Sirs", it's out! 23 00:00:56,210 --> 00:01:02,640 M: Are cover letters important? How important 24 00:01:01,230 --> 00:01:05,909 are the research statement and the CV? 25 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,140 That all varies from person to person on 26 00:01:05,909 --> 00:01:11,430 the screening committees. Some people 27 00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:14,010 ignore cover letters. Other people treat 28 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:15,900 them like Sally does, saying that 29 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:17,159 they really want to see in the cover 30 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:19,830 letter that this person knows that are 31 00:01:17,159 --> 00:01:21,360 applying for this particular job. 32 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:22,619 Because there are people like that, 33 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,820 I think you have to treat the cover letter 34 00:01:22,619 --> 00:01:28,080 as extremely important. 35 00:01:26,820 --> 00:01:30,540 K: Depending on the place you want to go, 36 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,579 because a lot of people who apply to 37 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:34,350 liberal arts colleges may not actually know 38 00:01:32,579 --> 00:01:36,210 what it's really like. It's not like 39 00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:38,430 they've come from a big 40 00:01:36,210 --> 00:01:40,290 state school and they want to apply 41 00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:41,520 to a state school. I wouldn't care about 42 00:01:40,290 --> 00:01:43,020 the cover letters so much because they 43 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,579 know what they're getting into. 44 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:47,009 But sometimes getting into a liberal arts 45 00:01:44,579 --> 00:01:49,110 college, it's not what you have 46 00:01:47,009 --> 00:01:51,450 experienced before and I want to 47 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:52,649 see evidence that you're aware of what 48 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:54,780 you're getting yourself into. 49 00:01:52,649 --> 00:01:56,189 The cover letter allows me to do that. 50 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:58,079 M: I talked to the current department chair 51 00:01:56,189 --> 00:01:59,880 yesterday on the phone just to 52 00:01:58,079 --> 00:02:02,670 catch up and see how things had changed. 53 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:04,079 He said that for him the cover 54 00:02:02,670 --> 00:02:05,909 letter was extremely important. He wanted 55 00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:08,819 to know why someone in a research 56 00:02:05,909 --> 00:02:11,129 university postdoc was interested in 57 00:02:08,819 --> 00:02:13,530 teaching at Cal Poly, which has a high 58 00:02:11,129 --> 00:02:16,590 teaching load and some research expectation, 59 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:19,200 but not the research expectation of the 60 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:21,240 sort of universities that the postdocs 61 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,300 are typically coming from. 62 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:27,410 That's who Cal Poly is generally hiring. 63 00:02:24,300 --> 00:02:29,580 K: The way I see it is, coming to a liberal arts 64 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:31,590 institution is very different than most 65 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,120 people have seen. Most postdocs may 66 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:35,670 not have experienced a liberal arts 67 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,290 environment. I want to see some evidence, 68 00:02:35,670 --> 00:02:41,130 somewhere in the application material, 69 00:02:37,290 --> 00:02:42,870 where that person has at 70 00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:44,610 least spoken to someone and is aware of 71 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:46,500 what it means to be at a liberal arts. 72 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:48,480 The most natural place is the 73 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,610 cover letter. It doesn't have to be, but 74 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,020 that's where I usually find it, because 75 00:02:50,610 --> 00:02:53,550 that is sort of open-ended, whereas the 76 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:55,290 other stuff is more standard. 77 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:57,209 That is, your teaching statement and 78 00:02:55,290 --> 00:02:58,830 your research statement will all be kind 79 00:02:57,209 --> 00:03:00,209 of the same for whatever place you apply. 80 00:02:58,830 --> 00:03:02,550 It's the cover letter that's different 81 00:03:00,209 --> 00:03:03,810 from place to place. But if it 82 00:03:02,550 --> 00:03:06,330 comes about somewhere else, then I'm 83 00:03:03,810 --> 00:03:07,830 happy to look at it there. 84 00:03:06,330 --> 00:03:10,920 Some people have come from a liberal arts 85 00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:13,230 background and say, "having come from a 86 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,760 liberal arts background, 87 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:16,410 it seems like this is the direction I would 88 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,660 like my career to go". Or, "that is the 89 00:03:16,410 --> 00:03:20,970 balance of teaching and research I am 90 00:03:18,660 --> 00:03:22,470 looking for". I really find it very hard. 91 00:03:20,970 --> 00:03:24,480 I like to see people's 92 00:03:22,470 --> 00:03:27,360 personalities coming through, and what 93 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,560 they're looking for. So that's one way, 94 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,480 if you're not familiar with the 95 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,280 liberal arts, saying something like: 96 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,260 "I'm particularly attracted to a 97 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,940 liberal arts setting because I do want 98 00:03:34,260 --> 00:03:38,070 to find a balance between teaching and 99 00:03:35,940 --> 00:03:39,209 research." I think, oh they 100 00:03:38,070 --> 00:03:40,290 actually know that they're going to be 101 00:03:39,209 --> 00:03:41,730 doing some teaching. And if you say 102 00:03:40,290 --> 00:03:45,380 'teaching and research' and not 'research 103 00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:45,380 and teaching', that says something else. 104 00:03:54,739 --> 00:04:00,360 H: Let me address: I usually don't read them at all. 105 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,110 M: That is the way I felt. I didn't pay much 106 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,780 attention to cover letters, 107 00:04:01,110 --> 00:04:06,470 I regarded them as formalities. But I am 108 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:09,480 telling you that other people do. 109 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:10,980 K: I think it is because of this quirkiness. 110 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,350 A liberal arts college is 111 00:04:10,980 --> 00:04:15,660 not your standard place, so you want 112 00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:18,709 people to indicate that, 'yes, I know what 113 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:18,709 I'm getting myself into'. 114 00:04:19,549 --> 00:04:23,669 Cover letters should be 115 00:04:21,539 --> 00:04:25,500 three paragraphs: one page. 116 00:04:23,669 --> 00:04:28,500 Sparse. 117 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:30,360 H: I would go immediately to the CV 118 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:34,310 and the research statement and look at 119 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:36,450 the letters. 120 00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:38,130 K: Some cover letters just 121 00:04:36,450 --> 00:04:40,560 repeat what's already in the other 122 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:42,540 material, and I find that a big waste. 123 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,010 Basor: I was kind of in-between: sometimes 124 00:04:42,540 --> 00:04:48,300 I pay attention to a cover letter and 125 00:04:44,010 --> 00:04:50,970 sometimes I didn't. But if there were obvious 126 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:54,600 mistakes in a cover letter: if you said "I'm really 127 00:04:50,970 --> 00:04:58,740 interested in coming to (parentheses)", 128 00:04:54,600 --> 00:05:01,650 and you forgot to put in the names. 129 00:04:58,740 --> 00:05:04,380 Or if you have the name of university that you 130 00:05:01,650 --> 00:05:10,410 just sent that letter to and you didn't 131 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:12,210 change it. Misspellings, bad grammar, 132 00:05:10,410 --> 00:05:13,800 that kind of stuff really bothers me. 133 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:15,330 K: One thing I think is really important that I 134 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,450 didn't appreciate when I was in your 135 00:05:15,330 --> 00:05:20,100 shoes, is what the hiring 136 00:05:18,450 --> 00:05:21,600 committee is really looking for. 137 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:23,100 They're not looking for - some of them 138 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,500 are looking for top notch researchers - 139 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:27,150 but at a small liberal arts place we're 140 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:29,220 looking for a colleague. We're looking 141 00:05:27,150 --> 00:05:31,890 for someone who we're going to see every day, 142 00:05:29,220 --> 00:05:34,950 next door, down the hall, and work 143 00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:36,240 with for like 30 years. You want that 144 00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:38,340 person to be someone you can work with 145 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,930 and you can depend upon. 146 00:05:38,340 --> 00:05:41,370 If you're putting 147 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:42,780 a proposal together with this person and 148 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:45,360 they've got typos all over the place 149 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:46,800 that would be a horror, and so you 150 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,860 steer clear of those people. 151 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:52,200 You're looking for the whole colleague: 152 00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:54,270 it's not just a teacher or a researcher. 153 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:58,890 M: It's a combination of things, 154 00:05:54,270 --> 00:06:01,669 but being described as a 155 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:05,070 'good department citizen' means that you are 156 00:06:01,669 --> 00:06:08,660 flexible, and you can teach a wide range of 157 00:06:05,070 --> 00:06:13,410 courses. Math departments are generally 158 00:06:08,660 --> 00:06:16,830 not as specialized as other sciences. 159 00:06:13,410 --> 00:06:18,930 We would expect anybody coming to 160 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:23,100 Cal Poly to be able to teach just about 161 00:06:18,930 --> 00:06:26,100 any undergraduate math course including 162 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:27,600 algebra and analysis. People really tend 163 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:29,400 to specialize, but it seems to me that 164 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,830 there's still this common belief that 165 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,160 you can teach any undergraduate course, 166 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:37,749 even courses you didn't necessarily take yourself. 168 00:06:37,749 --> 00:06:43,499 I think that flexibility is one thing. 169 00:06:40,239 --> 00:06:47,259 Looking like you're interested in 170 00:06:43,499 --> 00:06:49,919 continuing to do research and able to 171 00:06:47,259 --> 00:06:53,579 continue to do research, is important. 172 00:06:49,919 --> 00:06:58,589 At a place like Cal Poly, we had 173 00:06:53,579 --> 00:07:02,019 independent studies required of all 174 00:06:58,589 --> 00:07:05,379 students for a bachelor's degree, and so 175 00:07:02,019 --> 00:07:07,179 they require supervision. 176 00:07:05,379 --> 00:07:09,939 Those have some research aspect to them, 177 00:07:07,179 --> 00:07:12,009 so being able to supervise 178 00:07:09,939 --> 00:07:15,939 an undergraduate research project is important. 180 00:07:15,939 --> 00:07:20,499 Being willing to serve on committees, 181 00:07:18,309 --> 00:07:22,959 even at the assistant professor level. 182 00:07:20,499 --> 00:07:25,649 That tends to get heavier after tenure, 183 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:29,499 but they look for that kind of willingness. 184 00:07:25,649 --> 00:07:32,979 Also the ability to get along with people. 185 00:07:29,499 --> 00:07:36,369 H: In the selection process it is 186 00:07:32,979 --> 00:07:38,649 extremely important that the person will 187 00:07:36,369 --> 00:07:41,439 be a good citizen. Somebody who 188 00:07:38,649 --> 00:07:46,209 contributes and somebody who is going 189 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:50,139 to be part of the community. 190 00:07:46,209 --> 00:07:53,429 If you are going to be sitting in your 191 00:07:50,139 --> 00:07:56,019 office alone, not getting along with anybody, 192 00:07:53,429 --> 00:07:58,779 those people get eliminated for these reasons. 193 00:07:56,019 --> 00:08:01,509 So it's really important to be able 194 00:07:58,779 --> 00:08:04,389 to connect to people and be a good 195 00:08:01,509 --> 00:08:06,879 citizen, and going to do your share of service. 196 00:08:04,389 --> 00:08:09,249 Everybody has to do service and 197 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:14,019 be a good colleague, that's extremely important. 198 00:08:09,249 --> 00:08:15,369 K: It's very delicate you have to 199 00:08:14,019 --> 00:08:16,449 be very careful because one of the 200 00:08:15,369 --> 00:08:18,729 things that you don't want to come 201 00:08:16,449 --> 00:08:20,349 across as saying: I want to come 202 00:08:18,729 --> 00:08:22,059 here and I want to teach only the 203 00:08:20,349 --> 00:08:24,189 courses I want to teach, and I don't want 204 00:08:22,059 --> 00:08:27,849 to teach the icky Calc 1. 205 00:08:24,189 --> 00:08:29,739 But you can do it in different ways. 206 00:08:27,849 --> 00:08:31,509 You can say: I've enjoyed teaching calculus 208 00:08:31,509 --> 00:08:34,689 and I would really love the opportunity 209 00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:36,699 to develop some other courses. 212 00:08:38,829 --> 00:08:43,599 You can show enthusiasm without 213 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:45,699 coming across as being too presumptuous. 214 00:08:43,599 --> 00:08:47,079 It's the way that you say it. It is tweaking the wording, but that really plays a big role. I see where they're coming from, and I think they have gone to some effort and seem to be interested, so I would put them in the good pile. 222 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:04,660 M: I would find that kind of presumptuous. 223 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:07,120 It would rub me the wrong way just to have 224 00:09:04,660 --> 00:09:08,410 the cover letter say, "I see that you don't have 225 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,149 a course in this and would like to teach it". 227 00:09:10,149 --> 00:09:13,660 K: No, I wouldn't say that. I would say, 228 00:09:11,829 --> 00:09:15,100 "I'm excited that you are able to offer 229 00:09:13,660 --> 00:09:17,079 a variety of different courses, and that 230 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:19,120 really attracts me to your institution". 231 00:09:17,079 --> 00:09:21,699 Meaning: I would like to teach one of 232 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:25,389 my own different courses. 233 00:09:21,699 --> 00:09:27,399 It's the way that you say it. 234 00:09:25,389 --> 00:09:31,050 H: I would probably not put it in the letter, 235 00:09:27,399 --> 00:09:33,220 but keep it for the Skype interview. 236 00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:36,490 M: That's that's where it would come out naturally 237 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:41,500 in our hiring process, is in the phone interview. 238 00:09:36,490 --> 00:09:43,600 K: I confirm that is awful. 240 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,290 It sort-of rubs you the wrong way. 241 00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:50,110 F: There's an intention there. 242 00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:52,630 How can they get their intention across better. 243 00:09:50,110 --> 00:09:55,029 K: I would say showing a genuine interest. 244 00:09:52,630 --> 00:09:57,850 Saying: "having interacted with people in a 246 00:09:57,850 --> 00:10:01,899 liberal arts environment" or 248 00:10:01,899 --> 00:10:06,370 describing what a liberal arts institution is 249 00:10:03,910 --> 00:10:08,260 and then talking about how you're excited about it. 251 00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:14,529 People, especially mathematicians, they are 252 00:10:11,230 --> 00:10:17,470 very cautious about exposing their excitement. 254 00:10:17,470 --> 00:10:20,949 You don't have to be jumping up and down, 255 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,360 but just showing that you are interested, 257 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,350 your personality comes through. 258 00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:29,500 I think the cover letter is the place 259 00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:31,329 where that can happen. 260 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,980 It's hard for me to do it cold: 261 00:10:31,329 --> 00:10:34,899 I would have to look at what you're trying to say, 262 00:10:32,980 --> 00:10:36,310 but there's good ways to say something, 263 00:10:34,899 --> 00:10:37,720 and bad ways to say something, 264 00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:40,689 and that was a bad way to say something. 265 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:43,750 It's the presumptuousness. 267 00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:47,829 You're going to tell me why you're such a 268 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,910 good fit for our place, 269 00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:50,910 that you haven't even stepped foot on? 271 00:10:57,100 --> 00:11:00,669 [Music]